A strange worldly phenomena

Today, while browsing the internet, I came across a comic (which you can find here: img151.echo.cx/img151/2760/believerscomic5et.jpg )

This actually gave me a puzzling question: Are Christians imposing their beliefs on people in such a way that it makes people angry?

To answer this, I want to put the question out to everyone who comes across this page – have you ever talked to a [educated, polite and street-smart] Christian about their beliefs, or have any of those Christians came and told you to believe in their God?
I am picky about saying an educated, polite and street smart Christian, simply because there are many people who call themselves Christians, but really do not know what they believe (uneducated), cause arguments rather than discussion (not polite), and generally don’t know how to interact with people about their faith (not street smart).

In my encounters, there are a few different types of people I have shared my faith with

  1. Other Christians – I go to a good amount of churches, and am able to talk to people from different Christian backgrounds.
  2. People who have been hurt by the church – either there has been a really bad teaching, or there has been abuse towards that person.
  3. People who have had the Bible shoved down their throat – generally kids that grew up in a Christian house and had no choice, and were more-so forced into their beliefs until they moved (or were kicked) out.
  4. The group of band-wagon riders who have not been influenced by the church in one way or another, and simply do not care.

The group I hear the most complaints from about Christianity is the last group, and they tend to be generally uneducated about Christianity (or misinformed by hearsay rather than asking someone who is informed about Christianity).

I just want to leave you with another question – why is Christianity under attack?  (this is a thinking question, not an “I, Alex, do not know the answer” question)


15 thoughts on “A strange worldly phenomena

  1. I’m someone who tells people about my faith but don’t necessarily ask them to believe me or share the same faith as I do. I respect their beliefs and do not force them to follow a specific path. I do give advice but that’s it. Which category do I fall in?

  2. I would say you definitely have the polite street-smartness going on for you, which is good, and I’d assume you are feeding people in an educated way. So, with those points, I’d say you are on the right track.
    One thing I’ve found, and you may find the same, is sometimes, you feel really led towards talking to a specific person, and you just say “the right things” and that person is hungry and starts asking questions about Christianity. That’s the Holy Spirit guiding you and prompting you, and that’s a really awesome experience.

  3. 5. None of the above

    I guess you could say that I have had a relatively neutral relationship with Christianity as a whole, but I am FAR from simply not caring. Existential, religious questions are the most important that we can ask; I think we can agree on that. I find it interesting that you ignore this possibility here, that someone yearning for spiritual fulfillment could simply not buy into Christianity.

    I have been approached by all kinds of educated, polite, and street-smart Christians. I have also been approached by many and more ignorant, rude, and illogical Christians.

    The problem is that ultimately, their messages are all the same. It doesn’t matter how polite you are, how well-dressed or well-meaning. It doesn’t matter if you focus on God’s Love or God’s Wrath or just what you consider God’s Word. The substance remains the same.

    Most Christians believe that A) should I die this moment, I will burn for eternity in Hell, and B) should this happen, I deserve it as Perfect Justice for the sin of simple disbelief.

    That conviction, no matter how politely put, no matter how nicely stated, and regardless of any profession of love, is hateful.

    I also wonder in what way you consider Christianity to be under attack? I’ve heard the claim many times, but I’ve never gotten a good sense of what exactly is meant.


    1. Well, I didn’t include the non-Christian categories, simply because my blog is in relation to Christianity. For people that want spiritual answers somewhere else, I would encourage them to ask questions, get solid answers, and do that for a variety of beliefs to try and get some solid answers.

      I’m not saying that the answers vary based on how they approach you (although some uneducated Christians can say some pretty wacked out stuff). What I’m saying is the approach to how things are stated can really change a person’s perspective.
      For instance, many people are not going to respond well to an opening line like, “You are going to hell.” People usually use this when there is no relationship to the audience (the person(s) receiving the message). Christians tend to forget about the relationship aspect of Christianity. When I am evangelizing, I tend to speak to people I know, and if I don’t know them, I work on getting to know them first. This isn’t a “I want to get to know them so I can preach to them until they’re sick of it,” but I am just interested in getting to know people, seeing where they’re at, seeing if I can help them out. Any other approach, which you have most likely had happen to you, just leads to friction. You just need to have a love for people, and let God do the rest. I have had people ask me about my faith simply by me being available to them, and offering help where I can give it. I don’t even prompt them. I think that’s good evangelism.

      It’s unfortunate you have that sort of belief of what we believe. Yes, we do believe that if you haven’t accepted Jesus/Christ/God (however you want to put that), you will be whisked away into hell. That should never be the point of our message. Yes, we believe it as truth, but that’s a really crappy way to relay our faith. As I mentioned above, a Christian focus should be on relationship.

      Oh, when I said my approach, I didn’t mean that the Christian should be well dressed or anything like that. They should, however, be in line with their audience. For instance, I wouldn’t look like a bum if I were to talk to a bunch of people with doctorates. And I wouldn’t have a dress shirt and tie if I were to give the gospel message to a homeless person. It’s all about meeting people where they are, because when something is dramatically different, people will automatically put up a defensive, and I understand and respect that.

      I think how hell is presented can be a message of hate, but the concept is not. Let me analogize this. If you were driving through a traffic light, and it was red, and you got hit by another vehicle, you could say “that light hates me” or you could say “I was told that red lights mean I shouldn’t go through, and this is my fault.” In your circumstance, you obviously have a knowledge on Christianity, at least enough to say salvation brings heaven, ignorance brings hell (and I am sure you are more informed than this, so I don’t mean to insult your intelligence). So, when it boils down, it’s not a message of hate, it’s a message of hope. People have been told about salvation (although in some cases, it seems very badly approached), and have the ability to ask questions, and test whether it’s true or not. You can decide on your own if this is right or not. If it’s not right, you have no reason to worry, and purely mentioning it was to get a rise out of me. If you believe it’s right and don’t like it, you are complaining to the wrong person. If you believe it’s right and you like it, then accepting Christ, if you haven’t already done so is a good next step.

      Christianity under attack would be, for instance, when you type “Atheist Comics” you will likely find many that specifically go against Christianity (I have never found an Atheist comic that says Muslims are idiots, or that Buddhists don’t know what they’re doing and have wrong beliefs). That’s not to say they don’t exist, but I definitely haven’t seen them. Also, you’ll notice most “popular figures in Christianity” seem to only be shown doing out-of-character things for a Christian, or these figures are considered heretics by the majority body of Christians (which is usually a good indicator).
      This isn’t to say that other religions aren’t under attack as well (there is a huge Atheist movement, and I don’t think anyone could deny that, so I’m sure somewhere down the line, they attack other religions, as well).
      Now, I don’t mean to say that all Atheists attack religion. I know a handful of ones that just respect what people believe, and go about their own lives. I like those Atheists, and I also like the ones that challenge what I believe (as opposed to attacking, which puts us Christians on the defensive).

      I hope that answers some questions, and maybe even sparks a few more.
      Take care,

  4. I understand the analogy of the red light, but I do not accept its necessity.

    I will give you another analogy in return. Let us say that I have a daughter of six, who clearly knows that it is Against the Rules to take a cookie from the cookie jar. As children will, let us say that she does take a cookie. And then I put her hand on the burner of the stove, and hold it for twenty minutes.

    She knew the rules, she knew that it was wrong, and bad. She obviously brought it onto herself. Even if I didn’t burn her, I would say that it would be highly immoral for me to even *threaten* that.

    There are literally an infinite number of ways that God could treat those people who have decided that there is not enough evidence of His existence. Why Hell? Why the absolute maximum of pain and suffering for eternity?

    I would be really curious for you to write a post about why you think your Christianity, as opposed to the vast number of different religions and sects, is correct. Every person I ask this question has a different answer, and I’d love to hear yours.

    about atheist comics — the vast majority of atheist comic artists live in Christian countries, and therefore know the most about Christianity as it relates to their day-to-day life. That’s why they focus on Christianity. In many Islamic countries, making a blaspheming comic about The Prophet would be enough to get someone killed. Although, that having been said, I recommend reading “Jesus and Mo”. http://www.jesusandmo.net/

    1. I’ll just note that this is going way off topic at this point. I normally don’t do the whole off topic thing, at least in a discussion, but because of the nature of a blog, I’ll keep it going.

      With your analogy, you make it sound like God is the one that sends people to hell. God has done everything without influencing our freewill, to keep us out of hell. And also, the whole purpose of me using an adult (well, someone old enough to drive) was to include the idea of understanding consequences. God’s made it pretty clear, and from most religious perspectives, there is the general truth of “do good, be rewarded, do bad, be punished” sort of thing. God says, if you believe that I have reconnected you to Me through Jesus’ sacrifice, then we’ll walk through the rest of this life together, and if you don’t believe, then we have no relationship, so you have chosen hell. “But wait, that sounds like God is sending me to hell.” No, people these days have no excuse to say “I didn’t know about…” because if they haven’t been told, there are so many ways of simply seeking it out (via internet, television, local churches [granted, this is not always the best method, depending on what country you’re in]). I’ve never met someone who was interested in learning about God who wasn’t able to seek out the information.

      Basically, I think we can both agree, for Christians, we believe God set up a system; either you die and go to heaven, or you die and go to hell. I think we could agree that God doesn’t want us in hell, assuming we take the approach that He is indeed a loving God. For the most part, you could go to anyone in the world, and they would probably have a glimpse of knowledge of Christianity, or at least the common stuff (like the Christianized-Christmas [if you want to talk about that, wait until I do a Christmas article], or Easter [once again, wait until Easter]). The reason most people complain about “if you don’t believe you go to hell” isn’t for the fact that they go to hell, but it’s because people just don’t want to change how they live. It’s not appealing to live up to someone else’s standards. People like living the way they want to live. I suspect your thoughts more align with this than it does to “it’s not fair that God allows people to go to hell.”

      I may write an article comparing religions, but it really doesn’t interest me. People can do their homework on their own for that one. I think comparing beliefs ends up causing more war than it does peace, and that defeats my method of evangelism. I’m sure there are many blog and website posts that do this, and I’d encourage anyone who was interested to pursue those, but I think you would find more flame war than “hmm, that’s interesting” responses.

      I don’t think there is any excuse for attacking really anything in a comic setting. Christian comics (well, mature ones, I suppose) focus on Christianity, whether in amusing or serious lights. Atheist comics just tend to attack Christian belief rather than build up their own way of life.


  5. I’m not particularly interested in a comparison of religions, much more so why *you* specifically chose Christianity. What informs your adherence to the Truth of the Gospels?

    From what I understand, you have some pretty specific ideas about the nature and history of God. Why do you believe these ideas to be true?

    Do you have to just assume the Bible to be an accurate accounting, or do you have non-biblical reasons for believing that it is?

    I think these are the necessary starting-points for any discussion about religion, really. How do you determine the truth of your beliefs?

    Again, sorry for being so off-topic, but it goes to the core of the “attacks” on Christianity. If we non-believers do not see that you have a sufficient reason to believe what you do, we cannot accept your religion’s teachings in the public square.

    And about Hell: I hear this a lot from Christians, and I have given this a lot of thought. For me at least, it has nothing to do with changing the way I live. It has nothing to do with not wanting to measure myself against God’s Standard. I have no reason to believe that your statements about the bible are even true to start with, and it’s only once I agree with you that the Bible is true that I can make an “informed” decision about how I live my life according to the Bible.

    And no, I do not believe that it is fair that the majority of humanity will rot forever in the pits of hell. God didn’t have to set it up that way. I would pose one last question, because I think it’s very important: Is there free will in Heaven?

  6. Hell is a choice we are giving,if we denie our sineful,humanely worthless bodies need for redemption through the savior, the son of almighty God, Christ .
    You cab believe whatever ya like but all paths do not led to the same point. TOO God…
    Atheist do not want to believe in someone greater than their intellect allows them. But deep down every soul,damned or blessed knows at one time or another, that theres something or someone moore and every man I believe has the chance to accept God as he is in their lifetime. The holy Spirit daily is bringing the right people to the right momeant to minister hope to another, posibbly to an antheist( please excuse my spelling ) I can find the hand of God in motion every day of the week as I take time out to.
    People are so insulting to the LOrds name and the things of God that I wnnt to throw up. Then they wonder why they are miserable and peaceless.
    I walked a long, hard road before I found that relationship I was seeking and and the road isnt easy now but I would never go back to where I was. Without him !

  7. Hi Alex, Garry McGrath AGAIN! However, your question, in summation, “why do mostly athiest non-christians, particularly living in the nations of christendom, react adversely to evangelizing?” is a very good one. So let’s discuss it for a moment with a view to reaching some understanding and clarity on the matter.

    You ALWAYS turn first to find out what our Lord had to say on the matter, which was “people will hate you on the basis of my name”. As far as I can determine this is a wholly spiritual thing in that the spirit of an unbeliever automatically reacts adversely to mention of the Lord’s name because at the particular time the seed falls on the hard ground. That is to say that the person’s spirit is so lost to the evil one and the ways of this world that Christ’s name is a mirror of themselves to their eyes that they do not wish to look at. As an example, consider the reactions of the demons in speaking to Him when being cast out.

    Another problem, and that which I am much more concerned about, is the fact that Christianity has a very very bad name. And here I, personally, mean christendom – the so called Christian establishments that exist or have existed in non-muslim and eastern countries. Just a cursory account of the history of these organizations tells both us and the non-believers that untold harm has been done by them in the name of Jesus Christ. Millions murdered and persecuted, each side claiming righteousness in Christ. Can you blame the average non-believer. I can’t. As an example, read a good historical account of the crusades, not to mention the inquisition, the salem witch hunts, the reformation wars etc, etc, etc. It is damned near endless, and even most moderately educated people have a cursory knowledge of such things with which to condemn the Faith out of hand. Their cry is that we are no better than they are so what is left to believe that is good! Consider Jimmy and Tammy Baker and their ilk, the MANY self professed pastors of the popular media who have fallen from their self established positions of grace. Who can blame the average person in christendom for rejecting the faith………

    God doesn’t!

    Please permit me to explain.

    God does not nor did he ever expect that the many would believe in Him. Rather, knowing everything about how the creation would proceed, He built into mankind the potential for people to be born that would seek him. These are the blessed who are aware of their own spiritual need, and even not all of them are chosen. Refer to the parable of the soer. Conversely, not all who do not believe will be destroyed.

    There is some talk above about all non believers being sent to hell, and this is indeed pure nonsence and unscritural. There is no such thing as conscious existance in hell and to tell an unbeliever he is going to Dante’s inferno is an act of disinformation against both God and that person. If you read John’s Revelation carefully, you will find there are indeed two deaths, the one at the end of this life and the second one at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ when all who are not exempt from the second death are resurrected to judgement. Judgement either to everlasting life as flesh or judgement to everlasting death in the lake of fire, ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY DID IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, and NOT according to what they believed. Indeed those who believed unto death and did the will of God accordingly are resurrected in what some call the rapture at the returning of our Lord. These are called “the elect” and will rule with Christ after their resurrection, most of whom will be “asleep in death” at that point. And as Solomon tells, the dead know nothing……..

    So, any self professed Christian who preaches to a person that unless they believe then they will be “wisked off” to to a place where they will burn forever is not only scaring that person away from God but is telling an untruth on God’s behalf. Can you blame the many people who hear such preaching for rejecting the name of Christ. I can’t. Hell and damnation preaching has lost many many more for God than it has saved, and anyone who does such runs the risk of losing their own salvation. Refer to Christ’s sermon to the Apostles about how anyone who causes any childlike (meek) person to be lost will themselves lose LIFE.

    These things indeed show why the road while straight is narrow. It is fine to discuss our beliefs among like minds. But before we evangelise we must be certain we can do so in spirit and in truth (the straight part), and so do no more damage to the reputations of our Christ and His Father, Who is long suffering, not in the least part through the kind of things mentioned above.

    May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, even those on the internet.

    Garry McGrath

    1. Hi, Garry,
      Christendom has made a mess of Christianity, and it is still an issue today, and I don’t blame people for being bitter about it, but if they read the Bible, they would see that the historical church has had some serious problems that it, for some reason, refuses to get over.
      Christianity will always have a bad name, and not just because Jesus said that people will hate Christians because people hated Jesus first. People hate Christians today because they don’t know God, and by that, I mean they don’t read the Bible, don’t pray, and don’t seek to be in relationship with God. This isn’t always the case, but it is more frequent than most Christians care to admit.
      I have actually answered the statement of the eternal-ness of hell multiple times, and found this website to be a great website about the eternal-ness of hell. You can debate those scriptures all you want, but if you don’t have any scripture to counter it, then you are just using your person beliefs instead of scripture.
      I never use hell as an evangelism technique because, as you stated, it doesn’t promote a desire for God, but you also have to realize that God didn’t create hell as a scare tactic, but as an extension of his completely pure and holy judgement – God cannot compromise humanity’s state in sin by just brushing it under the carpet. This is why Jesus was the atonement, so the sin was dealt with permanently. It’s not a lack of love, because if it was, God wouldn’t have bothered to send Jesus, but because of God’s love, He personally came in the flesh because only He can restore humanity through His law – God cannot go against His own word, which is why He didn’t flick some magical switch that removed sin and reset humanity’s state. By saying people who do not believe and know God still have potential to go into heaven is like dragging Jesus’ atonement through the mud and making a mockery of it; Jesus had to fulfill the sacrificial system that He, as God, put into place in the Old Covenant, and this is what allows a human to be freed from the bondage of sin.
      Take care, sir,

  8. Alex, I am grieved to my heart to read that a person who is attempting to “get out” from under the influence of the daughters of the great whore (false christianity) is content to believe that the Majesty in the heavens who is merciful, forgiving and long suffering for mans sake is such a one that would subject a human individual to eternal/everlasting burning, a hideous torture forever. All men other than Adam and Christ have been subject to the power of sin (they both volunteered) through no direct fault of their own and received the condition through an act of one man only, so mankind, while utterly sinful, is not guilty of the particular act that made him this way. So, should you continue to believe in, love and worship a God who would fry forever such fleshly beings in some fit of revenge. No! never let that happen.

    I do not usually quote isolated scripture as a rule but embody them in my sayings as the the Lord and our Apostles did, for satan can often be found between the lines of such action as he COVERS the context. However, you wanted scripture, so i will give you scripture:

    5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
    Eccl 9:5-6 (ESV)

    While written by Solomon, these are the words of Almighty God. Extract….the dead know nothing – forever.

    9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
    Rev 14:9-11 (ESV)

    Yes. Now this is a curly one, but if you read it very carefully you will see what is going on. This is the judgement day of the second DEATH. Scripture tells us that evil men will DIE in torment, and imagine any evil individual you like who did not die a believer here ressurected to see for himself that there is indeed a God, there is a heaven, there is everlasting life. Such a one will indeed die in torment because they will first see what they have lost. NOTE it is the SMOKE of their torment that goes up forever not a burning alive that goes on forever. Smoke represents prayer or pleading or pertitioning, etc in biblical language, and I imagine this is what such men will do, just as they do when facing the gallows. Finally on this scripture, as the Americans have the saying……What is so hard about the word DEATH to understand. Burning forever alive is exactly that – ALIVE, no matter how painful. No, DEATH is oblivion as said by Solomon.

    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
    Rev 21:8 (ESV)

    Again, here is an account of evil humans being put to DEATH in the lake of fire, as is this:

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    Rev 20:12-15 (ESV)

    The lake of fire is not Dante’s inferno but is clearly an analogous reference to being put to death forever by God Almighty. As it is said elsewhere, our God is an all consuming fire so do not fall into his hands, which is precisely what is going on in the scripture above. While our Lord Jesus Christ puts CERTAIN men living at the time to their FIRST DEATH when he returns with the sword of his mouth (he just says…..your dead) The Almighty puts men to death forever simply by his his will through his mere presence. For as the scripture says, no man (flesh) can exist in the presence of God Almighty.

    Now this next one is a little difficult for me:

    7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
    Rev 20:7-10 (ESV)

    Here, again, humans are put to DEATH forever (consumed) by fire. But I can find no “OUT” for satan, the beast or the false prophet – the scripture clearly says “tormented day and night forever and ever”. While this is clearly analogy in form, i Accept it is real concerning the gist of what is to happen. They will continue to exist confined and tormented in some way. I have sought through the spirit more definitive knowledge of this but have received none – so I accept it fully. It may have something to do with them being spirit creatures. I don’t really know. But given who they are and what they DID or will do, I believe it is JUST.

    Now I leave you to ponder these matters for yourself and will hassle you no more. The body of knowledge of our faith in the hands of men is so poluted now that you must do so – think for yourself that is. But, as our Lord said, you will know them by their fruits (the consequences of what they have done) and anyone who drives another away from God with fire and brimstone is doing the work of his father – Satan

    May the Spirit guide you in your search

    Garry McGrath

  9. P.S. I did not say acertain catagory of humans ressurected at the time of the second death “went to heaven”. Please read and BEHOLD:

    also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev 22:2 (ESV)

    They will be ressurected as flesh to dwell on the earth in EXACTLY the same condition as Adam was in before he ate the fruit (gave credability to what Satan had already done). Innocent of the things they hencefort do, but this time there is no “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” because he is in the lake of fire. And as such, humans will continue to need the healing power God Almighty provides through the Tree(s) of Life – Christ and his brothers. People outside Israel have always been termed “the nations”, symbolic of those ressurected to flesh but not permitted to enter The city of the New Jeruselem. IE, somebody has still gotta look after ’em – I could do that (LOL)

    1. Hi, again, Garry,

      I would rather believe in a God who not only loves, but rules. God is described as a King, who loves but also judges and disciplines. Without His qualities as a judge and discipliner, He loses authority as King, and all of a sudden Christianity is just universalism by another name. Christianity is not universal, and the verses on the webpage I gave you are not isolated – you could read a chapter behind and ahead and they still prove the same point. In the greater sense of scripture, look at the OId Testament, the bulk of the Bible – God judges, destroys, creates, saves, loves and everything else – He even allows Satan to “buffet” Job. The type of love God has is more than just infatuation – God loves like a parent to a child: if they child does something wrong, then He performs discipline to that child (in Christian context, if they do not believe, they are eternally punished – people have a lifetime to get to know God, so there is no excuse). And God never sends people to hell, in all technicality. Hell is a place for condemnation for those who do not accept Him as God through faith in Jesus Christ, and by default, under Adam, we have rejected God in this way, so the only way out is through Jesus. This does not negate the Old Testament way of salvation (through atonement), because it was still a matter of the heart – do people serve God or man? If it’s man, then we continue in our default path, and if we serve God not just in deed, but in our heart, then we are saved.

      In context for your Ecclesiastes reference, that is directed towards Israel, and in context with both Chapter 8 and 9 as a whole, talks about the common ending of all people, which is a physical death and judgement (in accordance to Jesus’ teaching and John’s Revelation). The second death is spiritual: God is spirit and sustains all spirit, and when God separates the “goats from the sheep,” those who destined themselves for hell are in a total disconnect from God and His sustenance. That is spiritual death, the second death. If it is just a second death physically, that is impossible, as our bodies will already be dead, and if it annihilation, then God’s judgement is not final (God judges the heart, and based on that, He either allows into heaven or allows into hell), so the second death has to take into account the already physical death and God’s lasting judgement, so hell as an eternal punishment makes logical sense in that construct.
      In revelation 21:8, you read that the second death is in a place, where there is burning fire and torment. This, in no way, implies annihilation of the person. Your continued revelation references also speak of a place, not an annihilation.
      Your reference to Revelation 22:2 says nothing to compare the existence of Adam to that tree, other than it contains the tree of life, and even in that sense, Adam or Eve never partook of that tree. I shouldn’t even mention that I am a preterist, meaning I believe the bulk (but not all) of Revelation was fulfilled at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, so I would understand that verse that we are able to spiritually enter that place and partake from that tree. I would also understand “New Jerusalem” as a spiritual city, one that we, as Christians, are all temples within the city walls, and we move forward in the power of the kingdom of God.
      Take care,

  10. Alex, I laid it out for you and DEATH is DEATH. Of course the second death is a spiritual event and the DEAD are judged in a stste of conscious spirit and the condemned spirit goes off into oblivian. But they are still men. Also, I think you may have misread my reference to Adam. But if you don’t know what the two tress of Eden were and that the plan of God is to re-establish the function of one, the other being removed, then I’m afraid I am unable to help you in your confused state. Almighty God is a God of order not disorder as the scripture says.

    All i have read here is continuous Christian motherhood statements bereft of structured knowledge. And i thought preterism to be a lapsed arguement compromised by the passing of time.

    My interest in you was that you appeared at first to challenge the validty of the trinity. However, your words reveal you are still tied to it and thus will continue to suffer it’s fruit. But in any event, one cannot argue (the process of establishing a proposition) with confusion. One just ends up going in circles. You operate a website in which you claim to be a Christian. Thus, i am permitted by Christ to establish your credentials without fear of condemnation. Having done that, i am admonished by Christ not to throw my pearls before swine, to avoid the snarling dog that rips open and cease to fellowship with those blown in diverse directions like winds.

    May the Lord Jesus Christ give you the Spirit needed to worship in spirit and truth with the good oil of knowledge


    Garry McGrath

    1. I am sorry you feel that way.
      I established that I was not Trinitarian multiple times in multiple posts, so you can believe whatever you desire about that, I suppose. In my earlier posts, I may have suggested a Trinity because my exploration of Christianity is progressive – I have never had all the answers, and some of my conclusions are new, some are old. Like it or leave it.
      I have no problem with humanity in perfection in Eden. Adam, however, did choose to sin (as sin is a choice to go against God’s commands), and as a result, all of humanity was under the identity of Adam and are condemned under his sin, an under Jesus (who is God) we are free from that sin, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
      My credentials as a Christian are these: I preach about the resurrected Christ who has freed humanity from the bondage of sin, because we were found guilty under God’s law and sentenced to hell, but through His death and resurrection, all who accept are saved. If you want to go against that, go right ahead.
      Take care,

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